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Google 来的一段. 你认真看一下 "若沒有已經固定實際十一奉獻、固定守主日的人,最好不要過早受洗,以免將來疑惑與困擾更多。" 笨同学, 你就是属于这种类型的人.

已經相信天父是全能的上帝,耶穌是基督是救主,聖靈是保惠師的人才是真的基督徒。相信世界有該有的次序,也相信有超自然的事件。對於十一奉獻的問題,照做就對。所以,我個人認為若沒有已經固定實際十一奉獻、固定守主日的人,最好不要過早受洗,以免將來疑惑與困擾更多。就像沒有經歷聖靈超自然作為、沒有經歷與確信罪得赦免、沒有接受耶穌作救主、作君王的人,也不宜受洗,是同樣的道理。

因為受洗的隨便,造成很多應該還不是基督徒的人進入教會。最後為了迎合這些人,結果牧師只好教導「奉獻越多,就會蒙受更多祝福」利誘之。然而這是偏向佛教與民間信仰的商業交換概念,完全不合聖經的看法。聖經的教導是,我們做我們該做的,上帝會按祂計畫做。不然,我們的信仰就沒有[即或不然]的這句話出現了。奉獻多,[屬世的祝福]不見得也多。基督教的信仰應該是,上帝是全能創造的主宰,凡事都在祂手中。或生或死,或興或滅都在祂手中。
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下拾英 / 心灵感悟 / 再谈“十一奉献”。“十一奉献”是我个人认为当今一些教会所使用的最可耻的“营利”手段。这颗毒瘤把许多人挡在了教会的门外,愿神的恩典胜过世人的虚妄和无知。
    • 我觉得您误解了十一献的真正意义。有空再详谈
    • 我觉得您误解了十一奉献的意义,不必再写了
    • 小同学, 多读点书吧. 我这个非教徒都比你知道的多. 真不知道你在教堂里是怎么混的. 光喊口号是没有用的. 感谢主! 让我认清了有这么多的伪教徒.
      • 一个认识上的分歧,用不着放大到“伪”的高度上。
        • 基本常识都没有, 不是“伪”是什么?
        • 其实是某些人自己"虚妄和无知",自以为是的认为什么"这颗毒瘤把许多人挡在了教会的门外"。一个多年的信徒说出这么弱智的话,哈哈,汗呀。
      • You think you know better than I, it's probably true. But if you think you know better than my pastor, and most of the theology leaders, I beg to differ.
        • Who cares which one is your pastor ? Did I mention your pastor ?
          • Well, the above remarks were part of my pastor's sermon. And you are obviously opposing it, or are you not?
            • Sorry. 我只是不信任你. 歪嘴和尚念经的事太多了.
              • 哈哈,他们庙里的pastor 老大没培训好,
        • 好,那你先说说谁是你的pastor,这么牛,比所有常人都牛,什么都牛的人,真少见。也许你的老大耶稣都不敢说他有这样的信徒,让咱们都见识一下,也尊敬尊敬
          • So you want to go to our church? I could bring you with me next time, and you are welcomed.
    • 内讧开始了
      • 保罗的教训:「所以,时候未到,你们甚么也不要判断,只等主来,他要揭发暗中的隐情,且要显露人心的计谋:那时,各人才可由天主那里获得称誉。」(格/林前4:5)
    • 谢谢分享!愿主带领,解开心中的疑惑。耶稣复活升天后,在十二门徒的年代,最早期的基督教会的过的是“共产主义”生活,所有教徒都变卖田地,财产集中交给教会管理。如果有时间或金钱能够帮助别人的话,当然是越多越好。
      • 看来这教会一天不如一天了。
    • 笨同学. 你的明白?
      新约中似乎没有那么明确。“少种的少收,多种的多收。"这话是真的。各人要随本心所酌定的。不要作难,不要勉强,因为捐得乐意的人,是神所喜爱的。神能将各样的恩惠,多多的加给你们。使你们凡事常常充足,能行各样的善事。”(林后9:6-8),

      然而新约中一个清晰的命令,我们最大的诫命——你要尽心,尽性,尽意,尽力,爱主你的神。这是怎样的奉献。四个“尽”字道出了对神100%的奉献,而且奉献给神的不只是钱财,乃是全部,“all thy heart, all thy soul, all thy mind, all thy strength”。

      奉献是出于神的恩典,各人凭信心交纳, 应该遵守十一这样的额度。
      • Good point, my pastor will surely talk about this next week, let's see what he has to say, I will keep you posted.
    • Google 来的一段. 你认真看一下 "若沒有已經固定實際十一奉獻、固定守主日的人,最好不要過早受洗,以免將來疑惑與困擾更多。" 笨同学, 你就是属于这种类型的人.
      已經相信天父是全能的上帝,耶穌是基督是救主,聖靈是保惠師的人才是真的基督徒。相信世界有該有的次序,也相信有超自然的事件。對於十一奉獻的問題,照做就對。所以,我個人認為若沒有已經固定實際十一奉獻、固定守主日的人,最好不要過早受洗,以免將來疑惑與困擾更多。就像沒有經歷聖靈超自然作為、沒有經歷與確信罪得赦免、沒有接受耶穌作救主、作君王的人,也不宜受洗,是同樣的道理。

      因為受洗的隨便,造成很多應該還不是基督徒的人進入教會。最後為了迎合這些人,結果牧師只好教導「奉獻越多,就會蒙受更多祝福」利誘之。然而這是偏向佛教與民間信仰的商業交換概念,完全不合聖經的看法。聖經的教導是,我們做我們該做的,上帝會按祂計畫做。不然,我們的信仰就沒有[即或不然]的這句話出現了。奉獻多,[屬世的祝福]不見得也多。基督教的信仰應該是,上帝是全能創造的主宰,凡事都在祂手中。或生或死,或興或滅都在祂手中。
      • 你自己做到十一奉献了没有?如果也没有最好别说人家。
        • 有没有搞错? 我做十一奉献? 你是讲相声的 ?
      • I think you misunderstood, my this thread doesn' t intent to reject the idea of tithe. I only wanted to press a point that whoever gives should have a willing heart, instead of under pressure.
        • I really don't think so.
          • 不是捐你自己的钱,风凉话随便说。
            • "若沒有已經固定實際十一奉獻、固定守主日的人,最好不要過早受洗,以免將來疑惑與困擾更多。" 同学, 心疼钱的话, 就别进. 不要一边在奉献, 一边肚子里满腹牢骚. 心要诚.
              • This is what my pastor is getting at: it's wrong to preach such information. Well if you think it differenly, you think it differently.
                • Your pastor is good.
                  • He sure is, he could have taught "tithe or cursed" in order to get more church offertory,
                    but he didn't. Instead, he told us the truth, which is not just his own opinion, but also a perspective of a whole bunch of other theologists'.
          • Good, if everybody thinks just like me, then what I am doing here?
    • 不要着急,以上是基于旧约而言的,下星期还有基于新约的讲道。我以前也说过,耶稣一次性为我们付清所有的“债”,然而我们还是要奉献,但这种奉献完全是自愿的,而不是被十一所界定的。如果要强调十一的话,那我们应该奉献的是23.333%。
      • 你继续吧. 期待你的精彩的下文.
      • cao,比联邦税还高,这圣经让你给埋汰惨了。
    • BTW: this is the thread I talked about tithe last time.
    • 耶稣说:“你们不要判断人”。
      • 多好啊,这个世界就不需要法官了,谁也没资格说别人好坏,自己也没必要分辨善恶.我错了吗?阿扁错了吗?你说了可不算!
        • 耶稣基督是那法官,我们当然需要预备他的审判
          • 别逗了,人类那么多年的历史,教会才多少年啊,没耶稣的时候,人们不也照样生老病死?你愿意整个虚无的东西骗骗你自己就算了,还让所有人相信,凭什么啊.你和地球上一草一木,地上的蚂蚁,天上的飞鸟没有区别.
            • 非也非也,你我颇不同也。没耶稣的时候,多人死在罪中。有了耶稣,多人得救得永生。
              • Amen.
              • 这个世界有进有出,有生有死,是以为平衡系统,如果永生,只进不出,这个世界岂不乱套,连宇宙都有开始和结束,你,一个宇宙中的一个灰尘上面渺小的病毒却幻想永生,凭什么?
                • To believe that the universe has a beginning and an end needs more faith, don't you think?
                  • 你以为科学家的宇宙大爆炸理论是通过学习类似圣经这样的宗教教义得出来的结论?
                    • Well, you think that theory is a fact?
                • 在我们里面的比在世界的更大(约翰壹书4:4)
    • Just to stress a point here: my pastor's above serman is about the teaching of "Tithe or cursed" of some churches. Please don't miss the context when adding your comments. Thanks.
    • 神说,那闪烁的,不止是光,但永恒的,才是。
    • 从牧师那里拿到了他的讲稿。以下是他讲道中提到的一些神学/经典中关于tithe的看法:
      本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛The following Bible scholars do not teach tithing. F. F. Bruce, Lewis Sperry Chafer, James Darby, Alfred Edersheim, Walter Elwell, C. H. Lenski, John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, Bruce Metzger, Dwight L. Moody, Dwight Pentecost, Charles Ryrie, C. I. Scofield, Charles Swindoll, Merrill Unger, Spiros Zodhiates, There are some big names in the field of theology. But in addition,

      Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of the Bible [p207], Walter A. Elwell, ed., (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996), s.v. "tithe." "Paul's vocabulary and teaching suggest that giving is voluntary and that there is not set percentage. Following the example of Christ who gave even his life (2 Cor. 8:9), we should cheerfully give as much as we have decided (2 Cor. 9:7) based on how much the Lord has prospered us (1 Cor. 16:2), knowing that we reap in proportion to what we sow (2 Cor. 9:6) and that we will ultimately give account for our deeds (Rom. 14:12).

      Believer’s Bible Commentary, the editor William MacDonald. Malachi 3:8-10, The NT teaches believers to give systematically, liberally, cheerfully, and as the Lord has prospered them, that is, proportionately. But no mention is made of tithing…

      Encyclopedia Americana [p6, 259]; “tithe” “It (tithing) was not practiced in the early Christian church but gradually became common (in the Roman Catholic church in western Europe) by the 6th Century. The Council of Tours in 567 and the 2nd Council of Macon in 585 advocated tithing. Made obligatory by civil law in the Carolingian empire in 765 and in England in the 10th Century… The Reformation did not abolish tithing and the practice was continued in the Roman Catholic church and in Protestant countries (until it was) gradually replaced by other forms of taxation. The Roman Catholic church still prescribes tithes in countries where they are sanctioned by law, and some Protestant bodies consider tithes obligatory.”

      The Encyclopedia Britannica (s.v. “tithing”): The Christian Church depended at first on voluntary gifts from its members.

      Luther. Martin (Sermon; August 27, 1525): “But the other commandments of Moses, which are not [implanted in all men] by nature, the Gentiles do not hold. Nor do these pertain to the Gentiles, such as the tithe…”

      Unger’s Bible Dictionary [p12, 18, 119, 135, 144], Merrill Unger, Moody Press “Tithe”: “The tenth of all produce, flocks, and cattle was declared to be sacred to Jehovah by way, so to speak, of rent to Him who was, strictly speaking, the Owner of the land, and in return for the produce of the ground… Although the law did not specify the various fruits of the field and of the trees that were to be tithed, the Mishnah (Maaseroth 1.1) includes everything eatable, everything that was stored up or that grew out of the earth…” (italics mine). 12-11

      Wesley, John, Explanatory Notes (s.v. “1 Cor 16:2) According to this lowest rule of Christian prudence, if a man when he has or gains one pound give a tenth to God, when he has or gains an hundred he will give the tenth of this also. And yet I show unto you a more excellent way. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Stint yourself to no proportion at all. But lend to God all you can. “On the Use of Money” from a sermon preached in 1744): Give all you can; or in other words, give all you have to God. Do not stint yourself, like a Jew rather than a Christian, to this or that proportion. Render unto God not a tenth, not a third, not half, but all that is God’s (be it more or less) by employing all on yourself, your household, the household of faith and all mankind, in such a manner that you may give a good account of your stewardship when ye can be no longer stewards…

      Justin Martyr [p252] (150 AD) “And the wealthy among us help the needy… When our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgiving, according to this ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and they strangers sojourning among us” (First Apology, chap 67). Also compare Dialogue with Trypho, chapters 17, 19, 33, 112.

      Irenaeus [p254] (150-200 AD). Did not teach tithing. Against Heresies, book 4, chap. 13, para. 3 and chap. 18.

      Tertullian [p242] [Church Father] (150-220 AD), 304. Did not teaching tithing. (Marcion, book 4 chap. 27) (Marcion, book 5, chap. 9) [Apology xxxix “Every man brings some modest coin once a month or whenever he wishes, and only if he is willing and able; it is a freewill offering. You might call them the trust-funds of piety; they are spent… on the support and burial of the poor.” [The following more compete quote is not in the book.]

      Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 3 page 46, quotation of Apology, chapter 39. “The tried men of our elders preside over us, obtaining that honor, not by purchase, but by established character. There is no buying or selling of any sort in the things of God. Though we have our treasure-chest, it is not made-up of purchase money, as of a religion that has its price. On the monthly day, if he likes, each puts in a small donation; buy only if it be his pleasure, and only if he be able: for there is no compulsion; all is voluntary. These gifts are, as it were, piety’s deposit fund.’ For they are not taken thence and spent on feasts, and drinking-bouts, and eating-houses, but to support and bury poor people, to supply the wants of boys and girls destitute of means and parents, and of old persons confined now to the house; such, too, as have suffered shipwreck; and if there happen to be any in the mines, or banished to the islands, or shut up in the prisons, for nothing but their fidelity to the cause of God’s church, they become the nurslings of their confession.”更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
    • 天主教有没有十一奉献一说?
      是不是天主教的神父是没有薪金收入的?而且神父吃住都在教会,一辈子不结婚。相比之下,基督教的牧师过的生活要“凡俗”的多 -- 牧师拿年薪,可以结婚,买房买车,等等。由此,是不是可以得出天主教的神父比基督教的牧师要“虔诚”的结论来?
      • 据考察,基本一样
    • 啊?本本,绝我所知你是虔诚的基督徒啊,现在怎么反对其基督教赖以生存的命根呢?没有奉献那里有基督教啊。自觉自愿奉献是行不通的
      • 啊?看了我的帖子你的结论就是基督徒不用奉献呀?不是我写得不好,就是你没有认真读。去,到外面罚站一节课先。